This is a special edition of The Invisible Woman Podcast, where we had a group of six women from different walks and stages of life get together to have a chat about invisibility, sexuality and motherhood. Listen as Carley Bishop, Voula Stamatakis, Johanna Kelders, Despina Merambeliotis, Marizelle Stein and Veronica Gauci share their experiences of invisibility and the influence of intersectionality on how they experience life.
The invisible woman project funded by our social enterprise's impact program promotes awareness and actions for women and gender-diverse people. To age with dignity, security, and safety. Find out more on justgoldwomen.net or on our socials @justgoldwomen.
Hosted by Voula Stamatakis
Edited and produced by Carley Bishop
This is a Just Gold podcast.
[00:00:00] Carley Bishop: This is a just gold podcast.
[00:00:03]
[00:00:03] Carley Bishop: Captured on the lands of the peoples of the east Eastern Kulin nation. We pay our respects to their elders past, present and emerging.
[00:00:27] Welcome to The Invisible Woman Podcast. We have a special episode today. We have a group of six women, including myself, to discuss the Invisible Woman's Syndrome. I'm Carly Bishop.
[00:00:39] Johanna Kelders: I'm Joanna Kelders.
[00:00:40] Veronica Gauci: I'm Veronica Gauci.
[00:00:41] Marizelle Stein: And I'm Marizelle Stein.
[00:00:43] Despina Merambeliotis: I'm Despina Merambeliotis
[00:00:44] Voula Stamatakis: And I'm Voula Stamatakis.
[00:00:46] Carley Bishop: So today we are going to have a chat with this group of women about the Invisible Woman.
[00:00:51] This group, today's ages range from 21 to 50. So we've got a broad range of ages here. Today
[00:01:00] Voula Stamatakis: we are going to describe about the women becoming invisible regardless of the background. Educat. Skills start, class or professional path they have chosen as soon as they hit 15. So I'm gonna ask, do you really see this syndrome happening around you or maybe to yourself?
[00:01:20] Let's start with Despina to see her views on that.
[00:01:23] Despina Merambeliotis: It's a fantastic subject and it's something that I've found is happening in a really subtle way in my life, but I didn't think it was happening to anyone else. So it's it's really enlightening to hear that it is happening to all sorts of women from all walks of life.
[00:01:37] I'm probably at the cusp of the beginning of a process that's about to happen, and I'm noticing it in very subtle ways in my day-to-day.
[00:01:46] Voula Stamatakis: So to the younger age, maybe these seems that it's not happening, really. What are you talking about? But let's ask Joanna if she has anyone in her life that maybe is facing this syndrome.
[00:01:59] Johanna Kelders: The more I think about it, it makes me think of my auntie. She lost her husband a few years ago and she's been in mourning for a very long time, a prolonged amount of time. And I don't see her very often, but it's easy to tell the difference between before and after his passing and how that sort of left her in a position where she is a bit rudderless.
[00:02:21] She doesn't really, I feel like she's in a limbo perhaps. I feel like a common theme in. Sort of syndrome is feeling like you're in limbo and a bit unseen, which hence invisibility. Cuz she was so used to taking care of him. She forgot to take care of herself and now that he's gone, that upended everything and she lives alone in this big house that they once shared with their family.
[00:02:46] She's had their support and everything like that of course. But sometimes it's just the course that it's taken and yeah, it's hard to see, but it's also we have to acknowledge that it's happening to more people than we realize.
[00:03:01] Voula Stamatakis: So it's a good thing that you mentioned that about the death of a partner because they are the five days that a result of these five Ds can happen to a woman to be, to become invisible. So one is disability, the other one is divorce, death of a partner, domestic violence or dearth of dollars. So you have referred to the death of a partner. So one women can become invisible because of that. Currently. Do you know anyone in your circle or in your life that maybe one of these five Ds has affected?
[00:03:32] Carley Bishop: I feel like. It's not even necessarily those five things that comes to mind first, because I see women that become mothers and then spend a lot of time, at home looking after their kids or out of the workforce and then deciding they wanna go back in and finding that so difficult. They don't have any connections anymore.
[00:03:55] They aren't the young, new, fresh people that businesses are looking for. And. They've been staying at home and dressing for toddlers to spit up on them. They haven't got like fancy clothes. They haven't been seen out in public with their nice hair and makeup, and it can just be a self-esteem thing. Like I don't like thinking about that part of motherhood.
[00:04:17] I think I wanna have kids one day, but I don't like the idea that I'll only be seen by children for a while, or I'll only be seen as a. I'm only there to look after those kids, or there's no reason for me to get dressed up and look pretty.
[00:04:32] Voula Stamatakis: Okay. So Veronica, what about you? Do you have anyone in your life that feels invisible maybe, or who is very visible and how does she stay so visible?
[00:04:44] Veronica Gauci: Both my mom and auntie, they're very different, but they've both got very strong work ethics and opinions and beliefs. And mom was always, she had three jobs when she was younger, always working. She worked really hard.
[00:04:55] She had lots of connections. And once she had me, and she had my sisters at 24, I think she was 25. We were her life commitment. She stopped working. She may have done one or two days a week, and then eventually we were just the sole purpose of her life. And she just started to neglect herself slowly over time.
[00:05:13] And all she would focus on was getting us to make sure we go to school, making us lunch, keeping us healthy. She didn't really have any hobbies and we were always trying to get her out of the house. She never wanted to leave the house, doesn't like to spend money. And she was so committed to this duty that I don't even know.
[00:05:27] She really enjoyed her life. That was her sole purpose. And I feel in a way, she was a little bit invisible. But now that we've gotten older and we're doing our own things and she's solely branching out, she's starting to go to gym, she's starting to work with my auntie in her business that she force and she's really happy.
[00:05:43] She's finding herself doing social work and all sorts of things. And you know this, I think it's a really good thing for women to have other options once their children have grown and they're, cuz the purpose doesn't, and their, you your children grow and you've gotta grow with them and. An evolving process.
[00:05:59] And these women have life experience. They've got experience with children and nurturing and patients that the world really needs. So they could definitely evolve and grow further in new industries. They just need the training and support.
[00:06:11] Marizelle Stein: I think. There is a question of location involved This whole aspect, like I'm still very new to Melbourne, so I can't really speak with the Melbourne perspective of older women or seeing them out in public, But I think growing up in the country, I do feel like women do incrementally go through these stages in visibility and then being visible. Especially over the lifetime, having kids as discussed before. But I think it depends how deep they are in community, like how small the town is.
[00:06:41] I think they're always within the community, there's always like an reaching out aspect and social media's definitely grown in the country and like being able to connect with everyone. Now I do feel like there. At times that aspect. I feel like it's, especially in immigrant families, maybe the belief systems, the ideologies that you grow up with in an immigrant family is a bit different.
[00:07:04] Like my mom for motherhood, she didn't work and then 45 came, my sister and I were both grown. She went back to workplace and she's got a lot more social life now. But I don't think it's as easy to do in the city or depending where you are.
[00:07:19] Voula Stamatakis: Yes. Because intersectionality is an aspect though in affect many women, because we're not only mothers, we're not only women. We're not only working, we're not only immigrants, we're not, we have all these things going on in our lives. So maybe one of them is a barrier for you so you can be visible.
[00:07:37] Who can tell us something about, for example the way we, if we are migrants, how can this be a barrier into being visible? You know the barriers that your culture puts you through.
[00:07:52] Despina Merambeliotis: It's interesting cuz I might have a different perspective than what you think. My mom was a migrant to the US and she didn't know the language at all and she was completely on her own. But that forced her to actually be a really dynamic person and get involved in business, get involved in society, make a network for herself.
[00:08:09] And she actually instilled in me that And connections and contacts and being involved was more important than anything else. So I'm actually finding that perhaps, with motherhood now and having a young child, he's seven now I found myself actually really devoted to motherhood, willingly, gladly.
[00:08:28] Absolutely. And now I find that I do have a bit more in. And even though I have all the skills that my mother set up for me and the degrees that I've got behind me, I still have that little bit of niggling loss of confidence in getting myself back out there again. So I've just published a book, I've done some media coverage.
[00:08:49] You'd think I'm still out there, but I still find myself just that little bit of, am I still relevant? How do I talk about something outside of motherhood because I've been doing that for the last seven. And so intently,
[00:09:02] Voula Stamatakis: yes. But I feel that you have been thinking through these years how to stay visible.
[00:09:09] You never be left yourself lost in motherhood. You are doing this now. You know that this is, has a timeframe, and at one day you're gonna be out there again and slowly you're doing small things. So this would lead you to. . So this is a very interesting aspect, how to reinvent yourself once you've reached this very significant role of growing up the children and letting them go.
[00:09:36] So I think reinventing is the key at this certain stage of our lives. When your over is 45 being relevant all the time and reinvent your. So what do you think what role does the digital literacy pay plays in all this? Because I believe that as technology is growing and going so fast, can anyone stay irrelevant and say, Ah, I'll look about this in the future.
[00:10:07] Is this an answer? What do you think, Joe?
[00:10:09] Johanna Kelders: I've heard of the term being thrown around a bit. The digital literacy gap, which is a real thing, I think. A lot of this Invisible woman project focuses in on the gaps that we can see between, intersectionality as well. There's a gap between, maybe geographical barriers being in the city or in more rural areas.
[00:10:28] And one technology is a big part as well. I feel like it's easy for some people to become invisible. In, for example finding a job, looking at your resume, someone's there's the goalposts have changed. So especially after Covid people have to be, it's commonplace to be expected to know how to work from home.
[00:10:46] Have those resources there, have that technology there at your fingertips, which not everyone can, or not everyone can just pick up straight away. I feel could even be a bit of a myth that because of your age stipulates your techno technological capabilities as well. Even, my parents, I still ask them for help with computers and stuff, and it would oftentimes be thought that the thing is, oh, your kids have to teach you how to use all the new technology because, it's so outta their reach.
[00:11:14] It's not. So yeah, I definitely think that there's a gap. And yeah, I also think that it's important that yeah, we all have to learn at the same pace and not leave people behind.
[00:11:25] Voula Stamatakis: What do you think, Carly, do you think that this gap can be filled in a way that these women can get back on track and, start being visible again?
[00:11:34] Carley Bishop: I do feel like that gap does come a bit. That gap that a lot of women take to be mothers and they're out of the workforce for that time because it can be a big chunk of time. I think it's clear that it is the women that seem to be suffering in this area more than men and the only thing that I can account that to.
[00:11:57] is that gap that women are taking to have the kids should we be having more, I don't know, workshops or something specifically so women don't get behind in technology?
[00:12:09] Voula Stamatakis: I believe that Many opportunities are offered, but it's on the person to stay relevant. It has to be you that you wanna stay relevant and be online in quotes, because if you don't, then everything will go ahead and you will be left behind.
[00:12:27] Do we realize? I think this is the awareness we have to bring to women, not to let themselves go, just lose themselves in motherhood, stay relevant, and then reinvent yourself and do something new.
[00:12:40] Marizelle Stein: I think that young people should recognize wisdom is always going to be relevant no matter what situation you are.
[00:12:47] And it's always nice to have a perspective of somebody that's been through it, and I think that's something that. I particularly have been wanting in this last period of life and realizing that there's, it's, the world is not as small as I think it is, that my problems aren't as small. And the older that I get the more I realize that there's so many ways around that.
[00:13:09] I think listening to this older generat. Can definitely help with those anxieties those workarounds, those all like the perspective that you have. So I think, I don't know about it. I think definitely younger generations should be listening to these ones, but the question of relevance and wanting to stay relevant, I think that sharing these perspectives is always awesome.
[00:13:33] Always like a way of staying relevant or should we say, or bringing, bring life to it.
[00:13:38] Carley Bishop: If the onus is on women to keep relevant and to do things to stay relevant, I think that there needs to be more power for women to say, I'm doing this for myself.
[00:13:52] It's not just for a hobby. It's not just for fun like I need to. Go to these classes. I need to write this book. I need to do this personal project so that I'm still using my brain and I'm still doing things for myself and I don't feel like I'm just here to be a mother or a wife, or whatever you are seeing to be doing that is like your job because I think that.
[00:14:19] The reason that men don't have this problem as much is because they have the excuse of, I have to do it for work because my boss is making me do this. Even if it's even if it's a job that they have chosen to do or a trip that they've chosen to go on for work, they can come back to, Actually, I have to do it.
[00:14:36] I don't really have a say or it's just looked on as more important because it's a job they've been paid to do.
[00:14:42] Johanna Kelders: I was going to touch on the divide between maybe talking about learning from older generations. I feel like when you look at Westernized culture compared to other cultures, we really see a lack of respect for older generations. I'm sure in other experiences across the world older people are really respected for their wisdom and we've let that go.
[00:15:03] I've seen perhaps in Australia and in other westernized cultures it's really difficult to see older people becoming invisible because they're just not as respected or they're cuz they're not able to work anymore. They're not as valued
[00:15:17] as they once were when they were able to contribute to further capacity.
[00:15:22] Voula Stamatakis: Yes, this is I think that has to be taught from from the, coming from the family, from the schools to, better respect the other people because of the wisdom and all the things they have to offer. But the relevance I was talking about before was for ourselves for.
[00:15:38] not for the other people. What we do for ourselves to be relevant and to feel nice, to be okay and love ourselves so we can give back to the people we love. But first of all, put out for once ourselves first, and not let, just let them behind because of the kids, because of the family and all that.
[00:15:58] Despina Merambeliotis: In the US you find that because it's a different culture and there are lots of reasons including extreme capitalism, but people work a lot later, so they work until into their eighties regularly.
[00:16:10] Whereas I find in Australia, you're expired. After a very young age, I know a lot of people have stopped working in their early sixties, and I think that sets the tone for them personally, that they have nothing left to add, they've got no value left. So I think this will be changing though now.
[00:16:29] Not that we all wanna be working into our eighties by any means, but I think it's it's changing because we're a new generation of people who are constantly. Learning new things, adding value to their lives on a personal level. And I think slowly, we'll still be working. A lot later, we'll be involved in projects, we'll be freelancing, and that'll create a bit of a shift in that mindset of, I've reached my early sixties and I've got nothing left to give.
[00:16:56] So I'm hoping that will change.
[00:16:58] Johanna Kelders: Yeah, because oftentimes, People would just commit to one career. And now we're seeing more people working all these different types of jobs across their lifespan. And I guess earning all these different sort of skill sets. So I think that's PAVs a really positive way for the future.
[00:17:12] Definitely.
[00:17:14] Voula Stamatakis: Yeah. This is great that it's happening here in Australia because in Europe you don't see this. If you work somewhere, usually you die. They're working. I mean, You never change, you never go somewhere else. This is a great opportunity if you do this, your soul with skills, full of skills. So you can choose many jobs to work to.
[00:17:34] Marizelle Stein: I think it's interesting that a perspective of invisibility can also then be added into sexuality. Like it's constantly evolving in society and being included in society today that maybe we haven't seen like 50 years ago, like older women that are realizing they, they don't want. Live in this heterosexual, heteronormative society anymore, and they're opening their pathways into different happiness avenues, and realizing that they can actually be in a society that's more inclusive. I feel like that has evolved has changed cuz I feel like it was so invisible and everyone was forced into a particular way of living back then. So I think that's definitely changing and still growing.
[00:18:21] But having said that, there's only a few women especially that come to mind that have actually openly admitted that they. In a homosexual relationship and I think it's awesome that we get to learn from them, but but it's also like still sad that most of 'em are still too scared to speak up.
[00:18:40] Johanna Kelders: I think it's really important to note that even though it is called the Invisible Woman Project, it's not as binary as it sounds and we need to realize that. Yeah, all different sorts of, like with intersectionality, all sorts of different people with different identities can Find themselves at a disadvantage, especially as they age.
[00:18:57] Voula Stamatakis: I would like to thank everybody for joining us to this discussion in bringing awareness to the Invisible Woman syndrome. Thank you for coming.
[00:19:05] Carley Bishop: The invisible woman project funded by our social enterprises impact program promotes awareness and actions for women and gender diverse people. To age with dignity, security, and safety. Find out more on justgoldwomen.net or on our socials @justgoldwomen.