Welcome to the second part of The Invisible Woman Adelaide Panel Discussion, as our expert panel responds to the invisible woman syndrome and what invisibility looks like in South Australia. In the second part, we explore women in leadership, homelessness, diverse and migrant communities, and achieving equity in the workplace. Featuring Lord Mayor Sandy Verschoor, Adelaide City Council; Emerita Professor Christine Beasley, The University of Adelaide; Sanjugta Vas Dev, Director Office for Women; Jane Mussared, Chief Executive of COTA SA and Dr. Pam Papadelos, the University of Adelaide. This event is part of our commitment to raising awareness of gender and age equity issues. This episode was made possible through our social partnership with the City of Adelaide, with support from the University of Adelaide and The Office for Women, with special thanks to the Fay Gale Centre on gender research. Stay tuned for new episodes of TIW every Friday.
[00:00:00] Grace Packer: This is a just gold podcast
[00:00:17] Carley Bishop: captured on the lands of the peoples of the E Eastern cool nation. We pay our respects to their elders past, present and emerging.
[00:00:28] In this special edition of the invisible woman podcast, we are proud to announce part two of the invisible woman Adelaide panel discussion. The expert panel features Adelaide Lord mayor, Sandy haw. Amarita professor Christine Beasley from the university of Adelaide, San Jude Vaz dev the director of office for women's health Australia. Jane. Maerk the chief executive of Coda, south Australia and Dr. Pam Papa. Dels from the university of Adelaide. This episode, hones in on women, in leadership, homelessness, diverse and migrant communities and achieving equity in the
[00:01:01] work.
[00:01:02] This episode was made possible through our social partnership with the City of Adelaide, with support from the university of Adelaide and the office for women and with special thanks to the Fay Gale center on gender.
[00:01:15] Mayor Sandy Verschoor: We really have to look at two speeds. The women that are older now and that need immediate care, but it's also how we teach particularly financial literacy to the younger generation coming through.
[00:01:27] I know even in my office, the young ones, I said, put an extra a hundred dollars a week in your super do it now, you know, while they have the ability to do that. So that financial independence is really important and that's gonna see that generation through. And the other thing I wanted to responded to.
[00:01:42] Was my lived experience. My thirties and forties were all about my children. And so I was sort of, I did have a career, but I was juggling career and kids where my husband didn't have to do that. So that's the period of time, thirties and forties that his career took off. And then again, towards my late forties and into my fifties, that's when my career took off because my kids were suddenly, you.
[00:02:06] Finish school and things like that. And so it's a really interesting sort of dynamic, which if you understood, that's what it was going to be, you would say, okay, well, you've got that 10 years or, and I'm gonna have that decade or whatever. And you would, as a family, you'd sort of work through that. If you can't do the juggle with both of you at the same time.
[00:02:27] So I'm sort of, I'm really interested in that, but it's also bring. Women back to the workforce. The other comment I just wanted to make was around COVID now what COVID has done over the last couple of years in Adelaide, but more so around Australia is the work from home. And I saw a great, a thought provoker from Julia Gillard.
[00:02:48] Actually that said that because work from home is staying it's mainly the women that are opting to work from home. And so they can drop the kids. They work, they can pick up the kids, they do the washing, whatever, and then they'll work at night to finish their day's work. And as a consequence, that generation will become invisible and that generation will miss out on promotion because they are not.
[00:03:12] In the office in the face of those that are looking to promote. And as a, again, as a consequence, there is the potential that in five years or 10 years time, we are going to go back to what it was like several decades ago, where. All of the top levels of management are going to be male because they're the ones that have actually been brought through.
[00:03:34] And the, the, this generation will be affected in their careers by actually opting for, for a, a, a sort of hybrid model in terms of work. And I'm really keeping an eye on that, even in my own office. To see who's opting to work from home and who's not, and it's primarily the women I'd
[00:03:52] Dr Pam Papadelos: like to add to that with women working from home, I have seen around my office and in our department that in fact those women are complaining that because they are at home, they're actually doing more of the housework than they ever did before, because men are leaving to go to.
[00:04:08] So we're reproducing a model that we, we fought in
[00:04:12] Mayor Sandy Verschoor: the fifties. Yeah. Weight. It does feel like that.
[00:04:14] Dr Pam Papadelos: Yeah. So, because you're home, you're gonna cook the dinner. You're gonna pick up the kids from school. I mean, then you're gonna work all night. Yeah. To do the, their schedule was to kick your job. Yeah. Have an income.
[00:04:24] Yeah. I think that's an unfortunate consequence.
[00:04:27] Jane Mussared: And we know that the women are much more likely to be the carers. Women are much more likely to care for longer care, more intensively, and care more often for people through their lifetimes and including as they get older. Often for older parents, increasingly for grandchildren, the census has just told us that 67% of grandparent carers are actually women.
[00:04:50] So their, their caring responsibility is something that follows us throughout our. And, you know, I think sometimes our solutions to things like shortages in age care or people's low expectations, I think of age care are to look for informal carers. And again, women are implicated in that and it means that again, women whose careers might be starting to blossom in their fifties and sixties are actually compromised because they've been called into care for grandchildren.
[00:05:19] Or indeed for older parents. And, you know, I think a huge part of this is being very conscious of those pressures
[00:05:26] Mayor Sandy Verschoor: on women as they owed well, that's valued because maybe it's as simple as superannuation has to be a shared superannuation. If there's, you know, a breadwinner in the household, be it male or female, that that is a shared superannuation situation or something that, so it's really having a look at those old models.
[00:05:44] And seeing if there's things that we can do around that, because, you know, we should be valuing that caring that's a care economy. It, it absolutely is. Yeah, absolutely. And we can't do without it. So therefore, how do we value it?
[00:05:56] Dr Pam Papadelos: Because I teach in gender studies, teach about young women, predominantly they take our courses.
[00:06:02] And one thing that they don't recognize is, is. They seem to think because they're raised feeling very equal, having every opportunity, you know, being looked after being provided for, they think that somehow these problems are problems of our generations. Yeah. Rather than into the future, they see themselves it's cuz they're
[00:06:23] Mayor Sandy Verschoor: not there yet
[00:06:24] Dr Pam Papadelos: because they're, they're here.
[00:06:25] And in fact, don't have students who many, many years later I see after they've had children say, okay, there's a problem, but this is kind of how. How do we get into young H's minds and even young men, young men who say, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna leave my wife one too. I wanna be part of my childrens growing up and then enter the workforce of workforce that is structured in such a way that actually, you know, they they're relied on the artwork and men who take the right to request, to leave early, to pick up, uh, children from school and then seemed to.
[00:07:00] Not, not serious about their careers, women and men, women. That's right. And their men are less likely to do that. And then they get into this men do more overtime than women. So once again, produces this idea. And as young women, I tell young women that, uh, when the time comes to stay up from the children, you might think now that could be your partner, but actually he's gonna be earning more than you are.
[00:07:22] He's gonna be on some career track for promotion. It doesn't make sense for you to, for him to. Because the yeah. Economics in your family would be compromised.
[00:07:31] Christine Beasley: I had a little bit of a caveat there though, because one of the things that I guess I would say is least on the interview material on young women is that a lot of women are noticing that that might happen to them and a deciding as a result, if in a heterosexual relationship deciding that they will not have children.
[00:07:52] Yes, that's right. So I, I think there are consequences of all sorts. None of, none of them are necess. Great. However, we do have children, I guess we would like that everyone would feel they could if they wanted to. And that also they wouldn't have any trouble if they didn't. So that's the other thing about she super I'm a bit nervous about she super, because it assumes you're in a relationship which you may not be.
[00:08:13] And I think relationships now are much more standing for older women, certainly because they're often not going to continuing relationships from 40, 50, 60 years anymore. And of course, young people are not necessarily going to do that. So things are moving, but oddly enough, as we just dis described, I think very well, there are some things that remain so static and you think, how is it possible that you, you could have all these new changes that really are affecting all of us young and old men and women that it's still there.
[00:08:47] There are these structures that put, and I think Pan's point is really important. Your structure, which were strained, despite those challenges in society,
[00:08:57] Mayor Sandy Verschoor: a, uh, deeply feminist at heart, which I got from my father, not from my mother, which was really interesting in terms of his focus on education. And you could do anything he wanted to, if you put your mind to it.
[00:09:08] And it didn't matter that I was. You know, male female was the same. And so, you know, I just think that what I'd love to see is more women in politics. It's great. The number of women that have come through in the last two elections, we're about to go to a local government election at the last election.
[00:09:28] There were 20 in south Australia, 23 out of 68 councils had female. Which was the highest number ever. And they celebrated, the advertiser, did a big feature. The journal said to me, oh, you know, so what do you think? And I said, do you really want to know? And he said, yeah. And I said, I, I would like to think this isn't news, you know, in, in a few years time, I'd like to think that this is just not worth covering.
[00:09:52] It's just there's as many women in these positions as there are men, I do want there to be younger voices. In local government, which is hard with all of the pressures that we've just talked about, but to try and get younger women to have a voice for the future of their cities is really important. But equally, you know, the, the older women's voice needs to be heard.
[00:10:14] I mean, you know, I'm the only third. Female Lord mayor in the history of the city of Adelaide, our, our governor is the only third female governor in the history of Adelaide. And so it's not the norm and I'd love it to just be something we don't even have to be talking about. Look, I, I
[00:10:29] Sanjugta Vas Dev: fully agree. And in that way we want the issue to be
[00:10:32] Christine Beasley: invisible.
[00:10:32] Don't
[00:10:33] Sanjugta Vas Dev: we? Not women, but we want those issues to just disappear in a way. I think this passion, we saw the me too movement rise last year, and it manifested for a bunch of reasons. What I think is also really interesting about the why that came out as it did is, you know, we also have more women behind cameras in the media actually running the show a little bit.
[00:10:57] And so. I think part of that was like, women have always been there and they'll continue to be there. But as we have women in these different roles, we'll get more attention for this as well. So it's about women in leadership and women in leadership, in all different sectors, in all different careers, because as we become more out there, we will shine a spotlight on, on issues that affect us young.
[00:11:22] Black white, you know, country city. So I think that's been a really important, it's just been very important in, in making this all more visible, I think. And the other thing which I've been reflecting on through this project and, and through my work more generally is that whole concept of visibility. And, and can it actually be a power?
[00:11:44] Can it be like a superpower? Can we have, you know, as we get older, Our invisible CLO that actually allows us the freedom to just actually do our, do our thing without scrutiny that, you know, I feel, I felt a lot more as a younger woman in various ways and getting older. I don't feel that anymore. I don't feel that pressure.
[00:12:03] I just feel your visibility is actually something that I can work with. Not saying. You know, we want us to be invisible. We want us to be recognized, but also just thinking about invisibility a bit as
[00:12:15] Mayor Sandy Verschoor: a superpower, I don't think you're invisible at all. I just think that you are confident in who you are and what you're doing.
[00:12:20] Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's the confidence it's, it's not invisible. Well, we don't wanna
[00:12:25] Sanjugta Vas Dev: be invisible, but I'm just saying, how do we actually turn that to something that we can actually. You know, build on and, and make us even more powerful.
[00:12:34] Mayor Sandy Verschoor: We know all
[00:12:35] Jane Mussared: of the evidence from McKinsey and from Harvard management is that diversity adds value.
[00:12:41] It adds value to bottom lines. It adds value to the integrity of government it add and, and. So, not just gender diversity, but all diversity. And the second thing I'd say is we don't get there by accident or by doing what we do, you know, doing tomorrow, what we did yesterday, it has to be deliberate. We have to disrupt.
[00:13:00] Otherwise we sleepwalk towards a future, which looks a lot like. Where we've been, and it's a tough gig for older women, I think at the moment to say, to buck back at those trends and to buck back at the, at theism, I think that holds us back, but it is really important that we support one another to do that, that we rejoice, I think in, you know, 27 mayors last time in a parliament, which is gradually looking browner, looking, you know, more gender diverse.
[00:13:30] It's got representations now from many more people from L G B T I backgrounds. So, you know, I, I think our opportunities to build on that, but. I think we should resist the temptation to think that that momentum will take us there on its own. That has to be a, you know, deliberately putting pictures up in our chambers of women, making sure that the, we are not invisible, shouting loud and supporting one another to
[00:13:58] Dr Pam Papadelos: shout loud.
[00:13:59] Christine Beasley: Yes, I do think we've seen changes in relationships. And so far as I have the research background talk about. I would say that one of the things, and I guess it relates to a more general point. I hope you don't mind me moving to a more general point, but one of the things that's that TRUS me is it with the best will in the world.
[00:14:19] Many of the programs we talk about that might assist older people and older women specifically is the tendency to see older women as kind of put upon you. And I, I'm not suggesting we are not. And I, I guess I would certainly say, you know, in my own life that any endless amounts of sexual harassment of being there forever, you know, and I mean, I'm sure that every woman in this room has experienced sexual violence or sexual harassment in some version or another, at some stage in their life it's is just ubiquitous and certainly was in, in my young years, but even more recently.
[00:14:59] But anyway, the point, I suppose, While the one hand we have evidence of things remaining, remarkably the same in, you know, very disconcerting ways. At the same time, I would say that there are differences. I would say that older women are much more capable of expressing what they would like, what they would prefer than they used to.
[00:15:20] When I think of my, when I think to my grandma, you know, we can all think to our grandmas. There is no question that there is camp in relat. I'm not suggesting it's all gorgeous, but I am saying it's changed. And in many ways, in number of opportunities in relationships to make choices for older women, younger women as well, but older women to say what they think they really need.
[00:15:46] We see that. I hate to say this is not such a positive thing in a way, but leaving emotion. Women are more inclined to say I've had enough than older. And then, you know, we can say that that doesn't mean we all, all couldn't learn to do relationships in a better way, but I, I guess I would say that women are becoming more able to say we have examples.
[00:16:10] The very thing about visibility, about seeing ourselves out there and, and actually seeing what young women are are speaking up against too, is, is an encouragement to older women as. But I don't wanna put again to repeat the idea that you know, that we, that we're in position of the world should be summed up by me too struggles, because that I think does replicate the idea of us as the, the put upon ones.
[00:16:37] And we want to have the whole point of all things we've been talking about. Is to see women and older women as a resource in the world in a positive way, not simply in the legalistic, there are limits to what government in our culture can do in its programs, because those programs are genuinely reactive.
[00:16:56] That it's what been meant to do. Not supposed to interfere with people too much and there's something goes wrong. So there's a reactive government in law in government. There's not a proactive one. When you say, how could we reshape society? So. People who are presently judged to be sort of, of no significance are all regarded as of a significant, that sounds like, you know, some glorious ho kind of world or whos gorgeous and sweet and cute.
[00:17:22] I don't mean that, but I mean, do I do think there is a, the difficulty for governments, agencies, academics, teachers, all sorts of people. So how. Reimagine the world, not just,
[00:17:36] Dr Pam Papadelos: how do we stop nasty things?
[00:17:38] Jane Mussared: I think, including for a fast growing household type, which is the older single woman. She is increasingly who we see in our suburbs, in our cities.
[00:17:47] And we don't have settings. Often. We don't have housing, we don't have an economic structure that supports her to flourish and. I mean, I can't
[00:17:56] Dr Pam Papadelos: talk about all bulk women because I dunno, and I don't wanna generalize, but I'd say that for Greek culture women, so Greeks in south Australia, and I think in Australia, you know, have high levels of house ownership compared to post-war Greek migrants compared to most migrant groups.
[00:18:13] So housing doesn't seem to be as big issue, although with the death of one partner, generally, that even areas that are now very expensive and the rates and electricity and housing. Are quite expensive. So I think that's an issue for them in terms of, from what I saw generally, no, they seem to be more accepting of their life.
[00:18:35] They're seem to lead these issues to their children, even in terms of deciding about end of life issues, they're quite happy to allow their children to make these decisions. They deferred to their children probably in ways that I would expect. Groups might want, but I, as I say, maybe some self Asian groups are the same, but certainly amongst Greeks, they're very, even in, if they're awful relationships, they tend to put up with them thinking that that's what you do.
[00:19:06] And certainly there was a feel that after so many years of been together and all the hardships of migration and raising children, you know, for our land and all. That, you know, they got to the end of it. So there's no point now into anything you might as well just put up with it to the end. And I guess there was also the issue or perhaps with some of those relationships they weren't love matches to begin with.
[00:19:30] So you went into these relationships with certain kind of understanding and expectations that aren't the same as practicing young people today in Australia or other. About what required of a relationship. But I would say though that while I think older Greek women are not vocal in their community because there's some cultural issues around women being vocal and that's to do with sexism within their families.
[00:19:57] They are very vocal and often quite dominant. And often the people that make the decisions within the family unit, but when it comes to the face of the C. They defer, but I actually think that's
[00:20:09] Christine Beasley: a relate to a very much larger point, but one that we've kind of touched on, if you are watching the TV news, as most of us usually do the number of times where there's some moment in, in society, like, you know, there Syrian refugees or the Arab spring or the Ukraine or whatever, what do we see?
[00:20:31] We see fields of men. There are hardly any. It's as if women are not changing the world and not straight feeling things because they have that lack of public voice. Every time we look on, on a TV program and watch something, have a look, how many women are there? You know, it seems to me that that's such a big issue, certainly that the women who are there, it, it not so many older women.
[00:20:56] and it's a issue that is well beyond this particular
[00:20:59] Mayor Sandy Verschoor: culture. I don't, I think because both my parents, I, I grew up in a very, I was very lucky. I grew up in a very loving family. We weren't, we didn't have a lot of money or anything like that, but certainly I never felt that I went without and there was. A very much a feeling cuz I come from a migrant family.
[00:21:17] So I was the first one born in Australia, in my family that, you know, you work hard, you put in the effort and you will have a good life. And Australia is an amazing country and Adelaide is an amazing city and I constantly, constantly see nothing but opportunity. And I think that it's. It's limitless as to what you can do if you put your mind to it and your energy behind it.
[00:21:41] And I've always been really passionate in that way and been, I guess, shepherded along to try new things, to take on challenges, to look at opportunities, to look at where the gaps are, to see what we, what you can put in place and to take people with you. And. So it it's one of those things I didn't wake up any day in my life and go, I'm gonna be Lord mayor one day.
[00:22:02] That was not in my thinking at all. And, you know, I mean, I've had many different careers and my passion has always been the arts because I think the arts has a way of expressing things to so many people in, in such a creative and collaborative way. So it is one of those where. I really want to encourage more women to have a voice.
[00:22:26] I think women need to know that their voice is heard. And as the minister said, you know, women are being heard, women are using their vote, they're using their voice. They're using their pen. They're using, they're using all manner of things to actually be heard and say that, you know, your voice is just as important as anybody else's.
[00:22:45] And it doesn't matter whether you're. Old male, female does. Doesn't actually matter. You all have a voice and I encourage everybody to use it. You know,
[00:22:54] Christine Beasley: I grew
[00:22:54] Sanjugta Vas Dev: up as a migrant to Australia and, and like you were saying, Lord mayor, I feel so lucky to, to be in this country. And, and this state, the opportunity that has that I've experienced, I feel really privileged, but I think what drives me to be really, I guess, candid.
[00:23:15] I wanna see more women around tables, but I also wanna see more women of color, more women of age, more women of color around tables. I'm often in a lot of meetings, a lot of forums, and I'm the only brown face around that table. And, you know, I feel like I am financially economically privileged, but I think that's something that really drives me.
[00:23:36] And when I say women of color, I mean also we'll focus on Aboriginal women. Mm-hmm and, and. Older women of color of different backgrounds. Because I think when we start talking about, you know, different characteristics, we, we, oh, women of color, you know, it's just kind of one strand, but women with disability, women, younger women, older women, L G B T I Q.
[00:23:58] So making sure that when we are talking about that lens, that we are also adding another layer of diversity and, and again, diversity around those decision American table.
[00:24:09] Christine Beasley: Generates
[00:24:09] Sanjugta Vas Dev: a much richer society economically civically, socially. So I think that's what drives me.
[00:24:17] Dr Pam Papadelos: Well, I'm a migrant to Australia too.
[00:24:19] We migrated here in 1970, so, and my parents and four children and had one born here as
[00:24:25] Christine Beasley: well. So there's
[00:24:26] Dr Pam Papadelos: five of us actually grew up quite poor relative. My father was a very charismatic man butt. Certainly wasn't a provider and it was my mother. They held the family together and was a very strong woman.
[00:24:40] She was illiterate, but she had hopes for us that we certainly didn't live that life. Having said that through circumstance. So I didn't end up going to university until I was quite later in my life. And I think what, what took me to the university as opposed to doing any other kind of work was the belief in education, which is while I'm there.
[00:25:00] And I think as do me of us that are in the. That education is quite liberating and education offers opportunities. And this is what I try to impress upon my students. And we support first university and migrants and Aboriginal students. We very supportive of through mentoring and other programs, because one of the things I'd like to say to young people is that it's never too late to go back to university because I think it is, it can change your life and it certainly changed.
[00:25:31] And why in women's studies, which is where I ended up now, gender studies and at the center is because watching my family's processes, watching my father who contributed a very little and in fact, caused issues, be the community leader, be a very well respected within the community where in our house.
[00:25:52] Dreadful. And, and it was us women, my brothers too needed a lot of support, us women that drove everything. And I saw that in the community that actually under the seed, it was the women. And yet none of them spoke out. None of them had the visibility, you know, and I, and I really wanted not to be that kind of woman and not to, and to encourage women that I knew by women and other women to don't stand behind your man, you know, actually, you know, stand along.
[00:26:22] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And if they're not sufficient in front, He's
[00:26:29] Jane Mussared: So I feel as though I have been surrounded by strong women all my life, my granny, my mother, my sisters, I'm the mother of four kids. One of whom is a, a young woman who is incredibly strong and clearer about. Her future and her group on the world, but so are my sons. And so, and, and I think as part of that, you know, we've always been part of a, a conversation, which is that the work we need to do better in the world, we need to bring others with us, that we are part of a community.
[00:27:02] And, and that we, you know, that, that there are emphasis in our should be less. Ourselves and meeting our own needs and much more on taking others with us and being part of a, a community that that's where our nourishment comes from. That's where our enjoyment comes from. So really important to strive individually, but very much be part of our community and be nourished and to nourish our
[00:27:25] Dr Pam Papadelos: community.
[00:27:25] Christine Beasley: I'm sure. I mean, nobody knows exactly why they end up doing what they're doing. So I don't wanna sound too sure, but I would say that the most obvious reason why I. To be driven to think what is it that we can offer any university to women? Which seemed to me to be fairly important to do is that I was brought up like me of generation.
[00:27:52] I changed class positionings over my lifetime working class background and being the first of my family. Like as many of us probably here are to go to university, but also I was brought up in the Bush from most. For almost all my childhood in remote communities. And I would say that I, unlike some of the statements about community, I would say I was not supported in my community.
[00:28:18] And no doubt that very many women were, I would say that my little family, my mom and dad, we traveled across the landscape did not have that view where they were eccentric in some ways. And they. not, not so much. You could do anything. Not at all. They haven't said anything like that. They would think you'll maybe teach or nurse if you're lucky, you know?
[00:28:38] Yeah. And I would've been very pleased with either of those two things too, but it was a very limited set of possibilities, but it was that thing of, you know, I hated before me, my mom and dad, just having a very different set of value from the community around me. I didn't feel like I was taking the community anywhere I can.
[00:28:57] But with that sense of, I think it's really important to, as Pam was saying, to be able to learn, to articulate your position and universities can help with that. They're not the only place, but there's certainly one of them. And the big thing, you know, like all of my generation, probably, I'm not sure it's so true now, but during my life, it comes was a way out poverty, certainly.
[00:29:20] And also a way of saying, look, I'm allowed to. I have a certificate I can speak, you know, and that really did give me it's there difference things for other people, of course, but from my background and my time or life, I would say I'm classic, you know, came out of education as the way to have a chance to speak and certainly against my community, not within my community at all.
[00:29:44] However, I do agree that bringing the community is.
[00:29:51] Carley Bishop: The invisible woman project funded by our social enterprises impact program promotes awareness and actions for women and gender diverse people. To age with dignity, security, and safety. Find out more on just gold women.net or on our socials at just gold women.
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