Last November the Just Gold team attended Newkind Conference, a conference designed to inspire and empower participants to build a better world. We had a chance to speak with some participants and presenters on the invisible woman syndrome, including guest speaker Dr Anastasia Hronis who is a clinical psychologist and founder of the Australian Institute for Human Wellness, and participants Annabel Rattigan, Program Leader at High Resolves and Natasha Wooley, Marketing and Communications Manager at High Resolves.
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[00:00:27] Last November, the Just Gold Team attended new kind conference, a conference designed to inspire and empower participants to build a better world. We had a chance to speak with some participants and presenters on the Invisible Woman's Syndrome, including guest speaker Dr. Anastasia Hronis, who is a clinical psychologist and founder of the Australian Institute for Human Wellness Participants, Annabel Rattigan, program leader at High Resolves and Natasha Woolley, Marketing and Communications Manager at High Resolves.
[00:00:55] We asked Anastasia if she'd heard of the Invisible Woman's Syndrome before
[00:01:00] Dr Anastasia Hronis: I think the way in which I've thought about it in relation to. Without knowing that it falls under this term of invisible woman is in terms of the concept of beauty. And as a woman, our looks being so much attached to potentially the status that we are given opportunities.
[00:01:17] We're given how likable we're seen as I know that there is research that says. Both men and women, but are people who are seen as more beautiful or attractive are also seen as more likable. And I think as a woman, that's certainly something that in some ways has influenced me and the way I have presented myself going forward, whether that be in workspaces or otherwise to be seen as likable.
[00:01:42] I'm 29. So I think still at this point I feel a bit invincible, but that said I do feel like I've seen other women. Now that I do stop and think about it who have become more invisible as they have become older
[00:01:54] In some spaces I have seen women become more invisible in some ways, when I think from a cultural perspective I'm of Greek background and traditionally women have, taken particular roles that might mean they have become more invisible in other spaces, like in the workforce, for example.
[00:02:12] And then in other ways as a psychologist, for us I'm privileged in that we are seen as. Being better psychologists, the older that we are and age is actually a good thing. And particularly within academia as well, the older you are, the more publications you might have, the more you have to contribute to knowledge and research.
[00:02:30] So in that sense for me aging has always been seen as a positive thing to try and, to work towards and that there's positive things that come in terms of employment with it.
[00:02:40] Carley Bishop: We asked Anastasia if she'd noticed this notion of invisibility with her patients.
[00:02:45] Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely with and not even necessarily just women who are in the older, age bracket, but those women who are even in their thirties and forties and starting to become more aware of their.
[00:03:00] Carley Bishop: We asked Anastasia what she would say to a woman who is just starting to fade into Invisibility.
[00:03:06] Dr Anastasia Hronis: As you say that, I'm thinking like, this is what I have to look forward to.
[00:03:09] I'm gonna start to fade one day. What would I say to them? I would be saying to them, surround yourself with people first and foremost, who value you for who you are in terms of the core qualities that you have within you, because those qualities and those values those don't. They're always with us.
[00:03:25] And we always have choice and agency to continue living our life by them. Things like looks and standards of beauty, those change, but the core values that make you who you are, they don't change. They don't fade. They don't have to fade.
[00:03:39] Carley Bishop: We asked Anastasia what she would say to her mum.
[00:03:43] Dr Anastasia Hronis: Would say to her, you are loved and you are valued because of the person that you are not because.
[00:03:51] Looks not because of age, not because of anything else that defines you, but because of the qualities that make you,
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[00:03:58] Carley Bishop: Next, we spoke to Annabel and we asked her if she had ever thought about invisibility on women.
[00:04:03] Annabel Rattigan: I have a lot actually. Particularly in the last few years, I think in my mid forties I feel that maybe in terms of employment, I feel that there's been many opportunities that I possibly have missed out on given that my interest is in kind of youth space and not for profits, that there's always someone younger.
[00:04:21] That's gonna take that now. And there's an expectation that if they were to hire me, I would want to be at a certain level. She might be overqualified. And so we'll just go for someone who's young and. that doesn't have the three children and the baggage it's unconscious. I've never felt it in terms of discrimination, but I certainly feel that invisibility in terms of employment, definitely.
[00:04:40] Carley Bishop: We asked Annabel if she thought of age growing up.
[00:04:44] Annabel Rattigan: Not. In terms of my own aging, I think I definitely felt like I would be invincible. I wouldn't necessarily look like. Looked who was also gorgeous. But the one thing I do really remember was when I was going through puberty, I remember being quite of disgusted with my mum's body, which was a really new feeling for me.
[00:05:01] She'd get out of the shower and things would be different to mine. They'd be saggy or they'd be different hair or different stomach. And I remember thinking that was disgusting. I put it away and I don't know where that came from. I don't know why I would be disgusted. Like my own mother who I'd never been disgusted by before who had birthed four children.
[00:05:22] It's a weird thing. I think, I don't know whether it's his internalized misogyny. I'm not sure what it was. And if my kids ever comment on my body, now, I always say I look good for 44, because I'm conscious of that they potentially could have those thoughts.
[00:05:34] So I'm consciously, even though I might feel not good about my body. Saying? No, No, I look good. If you look at me at this age, you are lucky,
[00:05:43] Carley Bishop: We asked Annabel what she would say to her younger self.
[00:05:46] Annabel Rattigan: oh, be happy with what you've got. I think that's the hardest thing for women. I think we're always looking for something else.
[00:05:53] We're always wanting to be looking like that person or being like that person rather than sitting with what we've got and realizing as a white privileged woman. You've got a lot. So acknowledge that and be thankful for that rather than constantly comparing.
[00:06:08] There's a huge thing for teenagers where we compare. So I'd say enjoy what you've got, be generous with people.
[00:06:14] Carley Bishop: We asked Annabelle if she knows of any women that have become invisible due to lack of access to opportunity.
[00:06:20] Annabel Rattigan: I think most women when they get to a certain age, unless they are white and beautiful are invisible.
[00:06:27] So women who are in public housing, women who don't have English as their first language, women who don't have an education women, who've been through family violence, women who have lost their jobs. Lots of my friends have been made red done in the 50. It's really hard to get back into that workforce.
[00:06:42] You then become invisible.
[00:06:44] Carley Bishop: We asked Annabel what she would tell a woman who's at risk of becoming invisible.
[00:06:48] Annabel Rattigan: I don't have that answer, but I know what I would say to my mom.
[00:06:51] Don't let dad do everything. So I think for that generation, as a 78 year old, I have just recently taught her how to pay bills online and a few other things online, which she didn't know how to do. And I thought there are so many things that then you're starting to like as technology advances, as different generations come in.
[00:07:10] And now that you're retire. you're losing, you're actually losing the ability to do particular things, which then you're losing your independence. And I think probably she never learned to do those things because of her generation. They didn't have smartphones and they didn't have QR codes and everything.
[00:07:25] So I'd say, try and stay in touch with a younger generation, because that connects you to people who are more visible.
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[00:07:35] Carley Bishop: We also spoke to Natasha, and we asked her, If she thinks that she has started a journey towards invisibility,
[00:07:41] Natasha Woolley: Oh, that makes it sound like it's something that I want to embark on and it is not. But yes, absolutely. I think it's something it's a, it's quite horrific phenomenon that we all kind of face. And it's insidious, you start to notice people don't look at you anymore.
[00:08:01] You don't get noticed anymore. Your voice is less important.
[00:08:05] Carley Bishop: We ask Natasha if she ever thought about becoming invisible when she was younger.
[00:08:09] Natasha Woolley: I think the nice thing about youth is it's, it comes with this sort of, false sense of immortality.
[00:08:14] So while you're young, you never think you're going to be old and. , I think while I was young, I had that, arrogance of youth of just not believing it would ever happen to me. That, or just thinking that was so far off, that it didn't matter, and so it's a very gradual process that just little bit by bit, you realize You don't fit into the category, that is going to get the attention so much anymore. And that category is, the youthful and the beautiful,
[00:08:38] Carley Bishop: Youth and age aren't restricted to one gender yet gender seems to play a major role in the invisibility syndrome. We ask Natasha why she thinks that is.
[00:08:47] Well
[00:08:47] Natasha Woolley: Our society is constructed in such a way that. piece of a media that we consume from birth and our brainwash starts from birth tells us that to be successful, particularly gendered as a woman, you need to look youthful. You need to sound wise.
[00:09:06] So you need to have the maturity of an older woman, but you need to look youthful, always look youthful. And that's that construct of beauty. Demand of beauty is gendered. That is very different for men.
[00:09:20] Carley Bishop: We ask Natasha what she would say to her younger.
[00:09:23] Natasha Woolley: I like this question I think age is like my superpower now. I've been through so much and without the experience and the time spent and the pains and the wounds and the healing, I wouldn't have the wisdom that I have now.
[00:09:39] And it's it's a bit cliche, but you have to try and view the wrinkles and the changes and the gray hairs as you badges of honor. And you start to, I think the. freedom comes from just not caring as much what people think anymore. So that whole ideal of beauty that, I've been striving to fit into my whole life.
[00:10:01] I just don't care as much anymore about, I still obviously get up and do my hair and put my makeup on and all of that, but I'm doing it now more for me to fit my standards more so than to suit society.
[00:10:14] Carley Bishop: We asked Natasha how she would explain the Invisible Woman's Syndrome to a five year old.
[00:10:19] Natasha Woolley: I think I would try and explain it that women have been made to feel that they don't count if they don't look a certain way before, but it doesn't have to be like that, and that is the sort of, growth mindset that we use in parenting and in teaching now is, you can make the difference that you wanna see in the world.
[00:10:37] We don't talk so much to our children anymore about being the most beautiful, who's got the most beautiful hair or the most beautiful lives. We try and center our praise and our affirmations around the things that matter. So I would frame it around how you can avoid this syndrome happening to you would be to focus on your.
[00:10:58] And really love yourself for your strengths, because that is how you can, best avert it and support each other. We need to support each other in a sisterhood, cuz if that's not something I think that this invisible woman's syndrome has done, I think it's, very actively works against that.
[00:11:14] We, we judge each other on, she's she doesn't look her age or. Like she's using Botox or those kind of things, that's us feeding the system.
[00:11:21] My mother would've contributed a lot to my self-esteem and my ideal. You know how I needed to please the world. And that, that was a product of her upbringing and her generation.
[00:11:33] So I aim to do differently in my own parenting. Like I said, I would certainly be aiming to emphasize, my daughter's strengths around her personal characteristics, not around her looks. And I. in terms of noticing when I started to feel the invisible women's syndrome would be, certainly at the time I didn't notice it, but now I can reflect that.
[00:11:55] I did look at my mother at times and think, oh, that's what age looks like. And oh, the wrinkles am I gonna have wrinkles like that? And, will my body sag in that way? Or will I put on weight in that way? And those kind of critical ways of looking at a.
[00:12:09] Never do we do that when we look at men, and the standards that we have on men, aging are just they're nowhere near what they are on how we view women. The way men's bodies are allowed to age and the way they're allowed to look, it's, considered sexy and distinguished
[00:12:23] Carley Bishop: We asked Natasha what she would say to her Mum.
[00:12:25] Natasha Woolley: I think I would say that I can see now what a hero my mom was, like she's someone who I didn't find inspiring enough in life. And I guess the benefit of hindsight is I can reflect on how she was she for her generation and for someone who was pushed down.
[00:12:41] By the standards of society and wasn't considered classically beautiful. And certainly, her body didn't conform to society's standards. She still accomplished so much in terms of her public profile, she still put herself out there and she was incredibly, popular and successful.
[00:12:56] And, and I think as a child, my, my ideals were so narrow that I thought you can't be popular and successful unless you're beautiful, I think I would acknowledge how my mother was able to, overcome those things despite probably some of the ideals and standards that were set for her.
[00:13:11] Stay. stay visible. Stay visible.,
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[00:13:16] Carley Bishop: The Just Gold team will be attending Newkind conference again in November, 2022. We hope to see you there. If you have your own story to share for the Invisible Woman Podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Get in contact at justgoldwomen.net.
[00:13:30] the invisible woman project funded by our social enterprises impact program promotes awareness and actions for women and gender diverse people. To age with dignity, security, and safety. Find out more on justgoldwomen.net or on our socials @justgoldwomen.
[00:13:49] Kyriakos Gold: This was a Just Gold Podcast. Find out more about our social enterprise at justgold.net