In this episode of the Invisible Woman Podcast, we speak with Sylvia Bikakis, Irene Nicodemou And Pamela Frost about how invisibility affects women in the workforce and in other areas of life. This episode will be broken into two parts, the second episode will be available next Friday.
The invisible woman project funded by our social enterprise's impact program promotes awareness and actions for women and gender-diverse people. To age with dignity, security, and safety. Find out more on justgoldwomen.net or on our socials @justgoldwomen.
Hosted by Voula Stamatakis
Edited and produced by Carley Bishop
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[00:00:00] Carley Bishop: This is a just gold podcast.
[00:00:02]
[00:00:02] Carley Bishop: Captured on the lands of the peoples of the east Eastern Kulin nation. We pay our respects to their elders past, present and emerging.
[00:00:25] In this episode of The Invisible Woman Podcast, we speak with Sylvia BCAs, Irene niu and Pamela Frost about how invisibility affects women in the workforce and in other areas of life. This episode will be broken into two parts. The second part will be available next Friday.
[00:00:46]
[00:00:49] Voula Stamatakis: So in this podcast, we are joined by Sylvia Viki. Pamela Irene, Nico , and we are trying to discuss about the invisible syndrome phenomenon, which seems to be taking place the last.
[00:01:04] Making a woman who becoming woman invisible as they age, regardless of their education, the background, the skill, the status, their class or professional path. So Sylvia, what do you think? Do you feel that women are over 50, are excluded from fully participating society?
[00:01:26] Sylvia Bikakis: I probably can't comment if they're excluded because I've can't say I've gone to participate in something in order to see that. Oh, it doesn't include me. But with age though I've noticed.
[00:01:44] Hey, she didn't ask me how I am if I've walked into a store, into a clothing store, and there's a young girl, I've been greeted with silence. And then another younger woman comes in and she's acknowledged, hi, how are you today? And it's oh, hang on a minute. I'm here too. That I remember really dawned on me, a couple of years ago.
[00:02:04] And I thought, wow, is that. Being ageist. I guess that's probably another term for it, but it's specific to us.
[00:02:12] Voula Stamatakis: Pamela, what do you think?
[00:02:13] Pamela Frost: I think absolutely women particularly when they're over 55.
[00:02:17] And not just from an age perspective, but a gender perspective. There's a lot of prejudice or discrimination against women, particularly in the work. So my background is careers and talent and so forth. So I said in recruitment, applying for roles if your qualifications are too old. I did my undergrad in 1989, so it's very difficult to exclude that information when you apply for a role.
[00:02:44] So your age is already identified and there is a preference or there are assumptions about old. That they're not going to have the energy or the vibrancy to be able to put in the hours and to be able to contribute to work. So I definitely see it in the workplace. And also from my understanding, women, their access to finance can be a lot more difficult, particularly if you've had periods of time out of the workforce or if you don't have a permanent, stable job.
[00:03:15] If you are in a casual employment situation, your capacity to get mortgages and. Is a lot harder, particularly if you're on your own, if you're a single woman. So yeah, absolutely. There's a whole range of different ways in which they can find it. A lot more difficult to participate fully. All you've gotta do is look at the statistics for women in boards, women in executive management, female politicians, and the numbers don't stack up.
[00:03:42] Voula Stamatakis: Irene, what is your opinion?
[00:03:43] Irene Nikodimou: From I guess observation and probably I'll be, yeah, I'll be experiencing some of that now too. I. Feel that invisibility and aging go hand in hand. So the invisible woman syndrome phenomenon is very real. And yes, I think women are impacted significantly older women particularly because of the number of factors that play in terms of.
[00:04:06] The different hats that they wear on a daily basis, particularly which throughout their life cycle. And so that impacts on how much they can actually, the level of participation. So I think it's not, I can't make a blanket statement about women in general because there is women who are properly, we say more privileged than other women and may experience exclusion differently.
[00:04:31] Not as much, but other women certainly I feel there's a significant barriers in their participation in the life of the society.
[00:04:41] Voula Stamatakis: Okay, so the barriers could be what, for example, te.
[00:04:47] It's really going really fast. So if this lady hasn't been working, it hasn't been following to her for the last 10 years, would this be a barrier for her to just go back and be where she left to just continue? What do you think? For the barriers in general, technology, just one that I'm thinking.
[00:05:07] Irene Nikodimou: Yeah, absolutely. Particularly for women of a 50, I think the attitudes in our society about how women are perceived over 50 women over 50 are not celebrating our society and generally globally.
[00:05:19] So I think that's a real issue. The stigma around older women when they're looking for work the assumptions about their ability to learn. May actually become a real barrier. And I actually have seen it through my experience. I was younger at the time that women, older women over 50, they were really whilst they were, had the credentials, they were not get the job, do recruitment because of the assumptions that they may need.
[00:05:44] The organization may have to. Significantly in getting them up to speed. So yeah, just one example, particularly in employment. I think it's very yes real there.
[00:05:55] Pamela Frost: and also with skills. So you mentioned technology, so I'm thinking about digital technology and whole social media. So when I was younger, like we didn't have, there wasn't Facebook or Instagram or all of these needs to create a brand and presence and online all the time posting and, create all of these sorts of images.
[00:06:15] The whole digital technology has become a foundation skill that everyone has to know. And if you haven't been brought up with it and socialized with it, it's not necessarily an easy thing to learn because where do you learn it? You're probably learning it from your children. Yes. More so than than anywhere else.
[00:06:34] So I think that is that is a. But even things like artificial intelligence and what's coming in the next wave, there's so much change, happening on that landscape that again, this is things that we're gonna have to get up to speak with. But yeah it's tricky, it's constantly having to learn and readapt.
[00:06:53] Voula Stamatakis: Sylvia, what do you think?
[00:06:55] Sylvia Bikakis: I'm I guess I'm lucky in the sense that I've been in, I'm a social worker by trade, by study. And as we know, there's probably more female social workers than males and certainly was the case at uni and in all workplaces I've been at women have been the predominance.
[00:07:15] Irene Nikodimou: Theme. However, in the more senior positions, especially in the bureaucratic organizations I've worked in, they have definitely been higher,
[00:07:24] you know,
[00:07:24] positions. I've been held by men management positions. I have seen a shift in recent years where there are more and more women. So I'm grateful to.
[00:07:35] But yeah, I think my industry, especially now age care, I'm certainly seeing that women, there are more women, it's easier to get a job in that field.
[00:07:45] But do you find that they're sharing the same responsibilities, men and women in your field, for example, or they have women doing specific jobs and men doing specific jobs, or do the office works, go to Main in the other works?
[00:08:01] I don't know, go to women?
[00:08:03] Sylvia Bikakis: Okay. At least speaking with the two, the last two jobs that I've had over the last 10 years, they've pretty much been shared. CEOs for a time were a male, towards the end females. I think there is,
[00:08:20] you know,
[00:08:20] HR department was always very mindful of balancing men versus women.
[00:08:28] Yeah.
[00:08:29] Voula Stamatakis: And do you feel that the payment, the gap as they are discussing, the reason the last days is closing?
[00:08:36] Sylvia Bikakis: Oh, I guess again, in my industry,
[00:08:41] you are,
[00:08:42] you are paid at increments, whether you are male or female. It's not about yeah. The position you're in. So in that regard, we're on uneven playing field.
[00:08:51] There in fact, sometimes, the women can do a better job Definitely. Yeah. Than the men.
[00:08:57] Voula Stamatakis: So probably from your profession, do you see that men are getting more jobs than the women? Or have you seen through the years that they were. More none than women.
[00:09:11] Pamela Frost: I think it's definitely changing. I think the landscape is shifting.
[00:09:15] So a lot of organizations are very active now on promoting diversity and they may have strategies where they'll set agendas to have 50% women in managerial roles. So the larger organizations are definitely moving towards those sorts of agendas on the salary. The pay gap, I think generally men.
[00:09:36] For like, with like role especially if you go beyond say an award rate, which if it's an award rate, the unions are pretty strict, I guess, on, equality and fairness and making sure that people are paid at the same. It's when you get to negotiate packages and deals. So it's not just your base rate, it's all of the perks, it's the bonus and all of the opportunities access.
[00:10:03] After hour social events, the networking, let's go and play golf, let's have a conversation about this. And like the wheeling and dealing that happens in the background of work that can help create better leverage for someone to negotiate better deals. That sort of thing still happens.
[00:10:20] Voula Stamatakis: So for the people and maybe women you are consulting, do you. What are the fears? What are they trying to, gain from discussing with you and you coaching them and everything? What are they trying to achieve nowadays? Just to be visible because the hashtag should be stay visible, whatever, no matter the age.
[00:10:42] Pamela Frost: Look, I think food, women and men, but anyone, regardless of what age they're at, they want to be recognized. They want to be validated. They. Appreciated for their capability and their contribution and whether it's the pay or whether it's the opportunity or access to training and development or promotional prospects or special projects or even respect in a management meeting that you are important enough to listen to your comment.
[00:11:10] I think that's what a lot of people want. Women may through personality through their upbringing. They may like I was thinking about this in preparation for this interview today about some of the differences over the years, over the decades and when I was at school, we didn't have the positive psychology moment of, focus on your strengths and all of that sort of thing.
[00:11:33] It was focus on the deficits and, what are your development needs and what are your weaknesses in an interviewing. So you're sort of focusing on all of the things that you're not. And maybe women more so than men, fall into the trap of, I'm not worthy enough, I'm not good enough, I'm not this. So therefore they don't assert themselves, they don't speak up.
[00:11:54] And that contributes to the invisibility more so than men. There's that common saying that in an interview, if a man can make 10% of the criteria, who will have a go for it? But a woman, she won't even apply unless she meet. 80 to 90% of the criteria. So no, I'm not even gonna bother cuz it's a waste of time.
[00:12:14] And that's what she's been conditioned to think
[00:12:16] Sylvia Bikakis: I've also had the experience of having many friends who have been out of the workforce basically to raise a family super intelligent women who have studied previously, obtained their, all sorts of qualifications.
[00:12:30] And of course, the bigger the gap. The harder it is for them to feel confident and oh gosh, what am I going to offer? And, it's really hard to try and make someone feel confident, because they haven't literally worked. But if you sit down and talk to them what have you been doing?
[00:12:48] You've been doing, X, Y, Z, and doing it multitasking. But still it's a hard one. I think they've. Their feet in before they start increasing that confidence.
[00:13:00] Voula Stamatakis: And I find that sometimes they just have to start from the beginning Yeah. As if they're just starting. Yep. Just to go some further steps.
[00:13:09] But sometimes you do have to take a step back to move to steps.
[00:13:13] Sylvia Bikakis: I've had to take. I stepped back because, my family traveled my, because of my husband's work, so I had to be the carer and, almost 10 years out of the workforce. Ha. That was really hard to try and get it.
[00:13:29] And I did start, I don't, very low starting point to then increase my confidence
[00:13:36] Carley Bishop: The invisible woman project funded by our social enterprises impact program promotes awareness and actions for women and gender diverse people. To age with dignity, security, and safety. Find out more on justgoldwomen.net or on our socials justgoldwomen