In this episode of the Invisible Woman Podcast, we speak with Sylvia Bikakis, Irene Nicodemou And Pamela Frost about how invisibility affects women in the workforce and in other areas of life. This is the second part of this episode.
The invisible woman project funded by our social enterprise's impact program promotes awareness and actions for women and gender-diverse people. To age with dignity, security, and safety. Find out more on justgoldwomen.net or on our socials @justgoldwomen.
Hosted by Voula Stamatakis
Edited and produced by Carley Bishop
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[00:00:00] Carley Bishop: This is a just gold podcast.
[00:00:02]
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[00:00:25] In this episode of The Invisible Woman Podcast, we speak with Sylvia BCAs, Irene Nicodemou and Pamela Frost about how invisibility affects women in the workforce and in other areas of life. This is the second part of this episode.
[00:00:42]
[00:00:45] Voula Stamatakis: So you were working in a very interesting environment. Can you tell us again?
[00:00:51] Irene Nicodemou: Yes, I was working in a women's health organization.
[00:00:53] Voula Stamatakis: Did you hear there any stories you know about women feeling invisible maybe, or mistreated?
[00:01:00] Irene Nicodemou: Absolutely. Because the women that, whilst my role was not clinical I was quality advisor at the time the staff were basically the clients of the organization. Were were women or anyone who identifies as a woman or woman. Who have been experiencing domestic violence, abuse, or family violence and they were needed to flee the home.
[00:01:23] And including younger women, but also older women over 50. And that's where I think ageism and gender bias yeah. Comes in and that's how yes, for us we're a gender organization. Yeah. Gender race organization.
[00:01:37] So,
[00:01:37] Yes, there's the inequity.
[00:01:40] The imbalance in power. Yes. They, we saw them all playing out Yeah. Through those relationships and circumstances with the women have been living.
[00:01:50] So how was uh, what was the support there?
[00:01:53] Irene Nicodemou: A range of different types of support, one-to-one, like clinical support, practical support, having them flee their home, providing them safe housing.
[00:02:02] But also in terms of if they choose to stay at home, making sure that where they live, it's safe. So all this and financial assistance to set them up and. Short to middle term further support, whether it's counseling or financial assistance, support for their children. Yeah.
[00:02:24] Voula Stamatakis: Okay. So no person is one thing. Women can also be migrants, parents, single parents affect by disability, the justice system. Do you feel that women are more affected by intersectionality?
[00:02:39] Because not only you're 50, but you have these other elements. Mm-hmm. How would they, how these elements will affect even more? In comparison, of course, with the men?
[00:02:49] Sylvia Bikakis: I think for me personally being a mom of three as my kids have grown and become more, it.
[00:02:57] And,
[00:02:57] you know, they're,
[00:02:58] they're a different generation obviously they're learning things, which I never learned. I find myself going to them, like you touched on before, and I actually feel quite inadequate.
[00:03:09] You know,
[00:03:10] Sylvia Bikakis: At work
[00:03:11] You know,
[00:03:11] Sylvia Bikakis: I know what I'm doing and I'm able to do my work really effectively. And then at home I often find myself, oh mom, you get, you get that response of, you, you don't know, or, yeah. But I guess that's just me possibly, I don't think, they intentionally do that to, to belittle me, but it's that feeling of.
[00:03:32] I'm losing my
[00:03:34] um, The
[00:03:34] mojo. Yeah, the pace. Yeah.
[00:03:38] Voula Stamatakis: And when do you realize, did, do you realize that you might be invisible? Because some ladies didn't even think about that until they came here to the interview and they said, I never thought about that.
[00:03:52] Sylvia Bikakis: I think talking about it not too long ago, it was really the first time that it, like the penny dropped in a sense.
[00:04:02] I've I guess I've seen it and because I work in age care, I, sorry, I see it continually with my clients, particularly the women, because I'm also, I dealt predominantly with ethnic. People, so the women had their husbands who were still making the decisions and who were still, the man of the house and, the woman didn't have a say.
[00:04:25] I probably didn't see it as being invisible, but I probably interpreted it as ageist. Cuz that's a common thread in sociology.
[00:04:36] So I was seeing it more. Okay. We are getting older now and it's the twenties and thirties who are. Yeah. Who are up on stage. And we are weaning off, but I don't like that.
[00:04:50] Pamela Frost: I think for me, that feeling of being invisible, I remember distinctly the first time I really felt it was in my capacity of being a parent. Yeah. And I've been self-employed for 20 years, but I've really put the children first. parenting and involved in school and the canteen and the, book club.
[00:05:10] And helping them with reading and doing all of that sort of stuff. I'm one of those mums every day I'm walking 'em school, picking 'em up, and quite invested in the primary school. So my first time was when you go to school and you lose your identity. So you're no longer the corporate woman or the business on or the professional, oh, you are racism mom, or all that's Ty's mom.
[00:05:32] And it became even more apparent when I started to be referred to as Jupiter, who's our. That's Jupi as mom and that's gala's mom. So not only do you not have a name, but now you're known as the mother of the dog. It's
[00:05:47] um,
[00:05:48] yeah. So you know that invisibility of in a certain kind of like lens. Yep. You're not even known for who you are, what you're capable of, what you like, what you don't, you become a, I don't know what you call it.
[00:06:03] You become a, that's a task or a role. And that's the sum total of who you are in that capacity. And I was thinking about some of the barriers just as you were talking and internet banking for example. That's a big thing that's happened in the last 10 years.
[00:06:19] And there are women out there whose husband's control all of those. All of those things don't give them access to internet banking. And that's their finance. I'm one of them. I was married previously. I would put my hand up to someone who had sexually transmitted debt, whole range of stuff because I was just not aware of anything that was going on financially in, in my life.
[00:06:43] Voula Stamatakis: Interesting that you're saying that. No, I never thought about That's, yes.
[00:06:48] Sylvia Bikakis: We certainly, I'm still married, but we have our task. And Yep. My husband is the financial guru. So yeah, I do place trust in him in that one. Yeah.
[00:07:01] Voula Stamatakis: one of the five days that, contribute to women being invisible is the death of a partner.
[00:07:09] Sylvia Bikakis: Yeah.
[00:07:10] Voula Stamatakis: And then it's when the woman just loses the ground, the her feet.
[00:07:14] So after this event, because we had someone who came here and when that this happened, they totally disappeared.
[00:07:22] They couldn't do anything. They had to start, nor not from the beginning, from the very beginning, and had to prove again themselves from a one woman had applied for 127 jobs just to get to the first job that her husband passed away.
[00:07:40] So this is something you,
[00:07:43] Sylvia Bikakis: It is really important to be on top of it or to know.
[00:07:46] I've asked the question, so what happens if you get run over by a bus tomorrow? Can we sit and talk about this? What am I going to do? Where am I following up? What am I doing?
[00:07:56] Pamela Frost: And of course that challenge is not just for death of your partner, but if you divorce,
[00:08:03] And you're separating out assets as a dear leader. Yeah. If the woman, and this is often the reality, it's the woman not always who qualify, that there are men who also take on this role, but by and large, the majority are the woman who takes on the parenting role and takes time out of her career.
[00:08:21] And if she takes a considerable time out, 10, 15 years, it's gonna affect her superannuation. Oh, yes. Yeah.
[00:08:30] Voula Stamatakis: Did you see the intersectionality where you were working or affecting?
[00:08:35] Irene Nicodemou: Yes. In terms of intersectionality is the approach of the work was actually based on that. -- Because.
[00:08:42] And our work, we need to recognize that the different social characteristics of women which make up, our identity. Whether you know where you live, your economic status your education Income a whole range of things can impact on women's ability to participate.
[00:08:58] And subsequently how invisible, excluded will be. And we were actually, we needed to during assessments, we needed to actually look at that. Because some, the way these factors interact with the way the society is structured, the attitudes. They can actually marginalize or discriminate against women, or in some instances might be a privilege because, women who don't actually, off they, their income is, significant.
[00:09:23] They're not experienced. There's a lot of stability. They're working confident, vibrant. So in terms of how certain women may be affected more and what's the approach we need to actually. Adopt in order to respond to their crisis, to their circumstances. Yes. We needed to actually take into account because there are degrees, obviously there's degrees of visibility and discrimination and, participation.
[00:09:48] So it's it's a concept that or a way of actually working particularly in women's organizations. Yeah. But I think. What you both said which, yes, it's familiar and yeah. So I I share some of those experiences with the exception of once. Whilst I never felt until now, invisible law.
[00:10:12] I mean,
[00:10:13] Yes, -generally when I decided to go back to to further studies a number of years ago, it was just before I turned 50, but of course I continued my fifties. I, it was the, for the first day of my life, I actually felt I stood out as I was old. In comparison. Yes. And I was referred as a mom mom by some students because the average age was about mid.
[00:10:37] Mid twenties. Yeah. But the contradiction there is, whilst I felt I was made to feel, my goodness, I do look old. I might blend it in, but I was, and obviously I could see that as well. Everyone else the contradiction is that I, whilst I felt for the first time, a bit discomfort in the way I'm actually viewed sin on the other hand, Because I had experience.
[00:11:01] I had wisdom life experience and professional experience, which it, you can't compete with that. That's right. Which is something that we don't always keep in mind that it's so important. So in terms of my, the journey during my studies was pleasant because I felt very visible. Yeah. But yet, Oh, it was so obvious to me that as we grow older, like we, it's like there's not, you don't belong here.
[00:11:30] Yeah. This is for younger women. This is for younger men. Yes. What are you gonna do with this degree? Aren't you gonna be retiring soon? I actually yes. Yeah, I was about to say, I felt very similar, even towards the end of one of my last workplaces where the people that were, they were employing were much younger.
[00:11:49] So there was just a handful of us seniors and I would feel I was feeling a bit old. It quickly turned when in conversation in the tea room about, experiences children. Yes. And then getting asked certain questions and what have you done, what did you do when you know your child got to this age, and what did you, so I found myself oh, I, okay, I know all this.
[00:12:15] I can be the expert here. And yeah. And I felt validated in the sense, yes, I was one of the mature age people in my workplace. But by the same token, like you just said there. Yep. There were some positives too. And there's also this inherent pressure on women to look beautiful and to stay young and to look vibrant and energetic and Botox and the hair and the nails and all of that sort of thing.
[00:12:44] And I'm not sure the same pressure applies. Not at all. Even when he ages, he goes gray, salt and pepper. That's okay. That's, it's sexy. That's George Clooney really good looking guy. I don't think women experience the same. No. That was one of the points I was thinking of today's talk, I thought, I think there's pressure now to keep up and look good and Yeah.
[00:13:07] My mum at 50. Yeah, we're, that generation, I should say, vastly different to what we are doing and how we are living and all the rest of it. Yeah.
[00:13:19] Pamela Frost: Mm-hmm. Pharmaceutical and the industry is multi billion dollar industries for all the face creams and the tablets and stuff to say, to stay youthful.
[00:13:29] Yeah, it's a constant pressure for us to lose. Don't put on a bit, don't, add a bit of fat and all that sort of stuff, so
[00:13:39] Voula Stamatakis: Another woman who was here, she told us about this and I didn't think about it, but she said, this is another thing when you come at this point and they treat you as if you're a ufo and what's going on with her?
[00:13:52] What's wrong with her? We don't really work with her. Yep.
[00:13:55] Irene Nicodemou: I struggled with it mentally. Yes, of course. Not to mention physically,
[00:13:59] you know,
[00:14:00] it, how it impacted on me, but, all those changes, and why ask women.
[00:14:04] Just the men don't.
[00:14:05] Voula Stamatakis: And God forbid you let your hair go white. Never.
[00:14:10] Pamela Frost: Yeah. And menopause is a topic that generally we don't talk about. No. It's taboo. The closest I can relate to is you get start calling, you start getting called.
[00:14:20] Karen, I'll stop being a Karen. Tell me a while to work out. Where's this, where is this camera? So is she,
[00:14:26] Voula Stamatakis: What should women do how are we going to compli? What should a woman do to stay visible no matter the age, the position, the intersectionality?
[00:14:38] What is the message we have to send them?
[00:14:42] Sylvia Bikakis: For me personally, it's self talk. It's, Hey, hello, I'm here. Yeah, and it's self-talk. Staying positive, staying confident, and staying more importantly. It tuned in the idea of potentially retiring scares me at this point. I, just want to keep doing something that brings value and worth and yeah, at the end of the day, makes me feel good.
[00:15:08] And then I think, yep. Job done. Staying online, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
[00:15:13] Pamela Frost: I totally, want to reinforce that self-belief personal empowerment to get out and connect with people in whatever capacity that is, whether it's socially, whether it's. At work or whether it's volunteering or whatever has to get out and be with people.
[00:15:29] I think stay active. Yeah. Because I think, eating well and healthy body, healthy mindset, that all relates to staying positive and having a good feeling about yourself and getting out. So that's what I think the woman can do. I think there's things that organizations and more structural things that need to be done also.
[00:15:49] Yeah, definitely. That is within our control. Yes, those mindset and personal actions and speak out, talk to people, share, make a request, ask, for help, for support.
[00:16:03] Sylvia Bikakis: And I guess really surround yourself. Positive people as well.
[00:16:07] Mm-hmm.
[00:16:07] Sylvia Bikakis: Because, there is that toxicity out there.
[00:16:10] It's so easy to be pulled down or to be to take somebody's words and take them to heart. Yes.
[00:16:17] Voula Stamatakis: . Protect yourself.
[00:16:18] Irene Nicodemou: And yes, and I guess, yeah. All of the things that you have both mentioned I think are absolutely critical. Yeah, and I think staying connected and being in charge of who we want to associate with and who would like and be with people who I feel,
[00:16:33] I mean,
[00:16:33] Irene Nicodemou: and this is what I try to do,
[00:16:34] you know,
[00:16:35] Irene Nicodemou: I feel visible.
[00:16:36] Sylvia Bikakis: And I'm inspired by them. So and that connection, I think it's very important. But I think as women in more, yeah, in general, I think it's so important that we stand together like in solidarity, because from what I hear, particularly in the media sometimes their worst enemy is women.
[00:16:56] And I have actually seen that play out in organizations that, in women's organization that are all women or anybody who looks identify as a woman but also in organizations that are pr that primarily employee women. It's yes. Or we're talking about gender biases and, quite often the men who actually discriminate against us or that male sexist mentality, I've seen that played out by.
[00:17:20] Same game. So it's so I think yes we can do, yeah, I'll do all of that, take that self care as well. But I think if we're going to bring about change and or helping women stay visible, particularly in over 50, I think we need to Lobby and to collective, take collective action and put the issue, on the political agenda because unless this reform structurally, and regulatory changes I don't think, we're gonna actually manage to bring about the change because I it both talked about the way organizations work unless.
[00:17:59] They become accountable. I don't think older women will be treated. Things have changed, but I don't think they're changing to the point that women can enjoy the same human rights like, everyone else, older women and live with dignity and and respect throughout their aging life.
[00:18:16] Yeah, I. A lot to do, but a lot that if we're gonna achieve a change. Don't you think it's more about women becoming aware of it? Because if you're not aware, you're just going with emotions and thinking, oh, this is part of life, absolutely, yes. But if you don't know about it, then agree.
[00:18:34] You can't. No. And I think. That, education and promoting this issue, putting it out there is absolutely critical. So many of us are not as women, not aware until we actually That's right. Start to experience it ourselves. That is like menopause we mentioned earlier. Yep. So we need it needs to become, and the media, we need to do a lot more with, seeing.
[00:18:56] Over 50 women everywhere. And celebrate women over 50, which we actually don't do. We'll do a little bit, but so little that we're not visible. Oh yeah. But I guess in terms of that, even if with education and and putting it out there, unless we have the infrastructure in place, the regulations, the laws, just like we have now gender equality, legislation on that.
[00:19:20] I think there needs to be some sort of regulations to, so that women over 50 are not discriminated when they're going to apply for the job. Yes. If you have the credentials, if you have the experience and the skills, why shouldn't you get the job? As opposed to away someone else who maybe younger or quite often is younger.
[00:19:38] On a positive note there, I'm aware of a gentleman who went for Fairly senior role in an organization, and he actually missed out because a woman got the position. Now, who was younger? I'm trying to remember the age. I don't believe it was the age so much, but it was Oh no.
[00:19:59] She would've been on par, but it was about this company. Doing exactly that. Trying to create balance. Trying create the balance. Yes. With the female male. Yeah. Yeah. And I think some organizations are doing much better than others. But it's not actually consistent. No.
[00:20:17] Across the board. It's not, which puts women in a very
[00:20:20] um,
[00:20:20] well,
[00:20:21] Sylvia Bikakis: we're d discriminate against, so I think as we grow older, that will actually have significant impact on. Not just our, how we live, but financially of course. Which impacts on our health and et cetera. So all domino effect. Yeah, that's right.
[00:20:34] Yes.
[00:20:35] Pamela Frost: I think another aspect is, and you mentioned it earlier, arena, when you were talking about socially how older.
[00:20:43] Are respected in our society, whether in Australia or other countries. And I think generally speaking, there is a lack of respect for older generations, women or men. And I think that sort of valuing an older person starts right from your family unit the family values that you have. But our schools have a massive influence in shaping the level of respect that is shown toward.
[00:21:10] Older generations, women in general. And I think there's a massive opportunity for schools, to, to invest in this, in shaping the mindset and the thinking of future generations coming through because it's the future generations who are going to be in the roles that are recruiting us. Yeah. When they get to 20 and so forth.
[00:21:30] So their prejudices need to be realized. Yes. So it's quite systemic. Yeah. And we may not even realize it, but negative attitudes towards women start as young as five and six years of age. Yes. It's the same with violence. Yes. Attitude. That's right. Violence.
[00:21:45] Voula Stamatakis: So education is, so this is what we are trying to do here, just called bring awareness about the invisible woman
[00:21:55] Thank you so much for joining us today, and stay visible as you are.
[00:22:00] you,
[00:22:01] Sylvia Bikakis: thank you. Thank you.
[00:22:01] Carley Bishop: The invisible woman project funded by our social enterprises impact program promotes awareness and actions for women and gender diverse people. To age with dignity, security, and safety. Find out more on justgoldwomen.net or on our socials justgoldwomen